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为什么印度自己造不来战斗机

 人参与  2019-04-25 11:28  分类 : 澳门足球陪率  点这评论

Why can't India make indigenous fighter jets and weapons?

为什么印度自己造不来战斗机和武器?

Quora读者的评论:译者:Joyceliu

Mahadev Bharath, Indian armed forces fanboy

Originally Answered: Why doesn't India have really good, indigenously built fighter jets ?

Two major reasons why we can churn out fighter aircrafts of that scale and quality.

1) Lack of private players in the defense space.

When the USAF (or USMC, USN) wants an aircraft they provide the spec, the necessary funds and in some cases the relevant tech via organisations like DARPA to at-least two private players to build the aircraft and outbid each other in a competition in a stipulated time frame. The AF would then test each of the prototypes extensively against the spec and decided the contract winner.

For example, in the Joint Strike Fighter program, two contracts to develop prototypes were awarded on November 16, 1996, one each to Lockheed Martin and Boeing. Each firm would produce two aircraft to demonstrate conventional takeoff and landing (CTOL), carrier takeoff and landing (CV version), and short takeoff and vertical landing (STOVL). Lockheed Martin and Boeing were each given $750 million for the development of the concept demonstrators and definition of the Preferred Weapon System Concept (PWSC).

最初的问题是:为什么印度没有真正出色的国产战斗机?

我们难以生产大规模和高质量战斗机的原因主要有两个。

1)国防产业缺乏私人企业。

当美国空军(或美国海军陆战队, 美国海军)想要一架飞机时,他们会通过美国国防部高级研究计划局等组织向至少两家私人公司提供规格要求、必要的资金,在某些情况下还会提供相关技术支持,让它们建造飞机,并在规定的时间内互相竞标。然后美国空军会对每个原型进行一系列测试,并决定把合同交给谁来生产。

例如,在联合攻击战斗机项目中,两份原型机开发合同于1996年11月16日授予洛克希德·马丁公司和波音公司。每家公司将生产两架飞机来演示常规起降(CTOL)、航母起降(CV版)和短距起降(STOVL)。洛克希德·马丁公司和波音公司分别获得7.5亿美元,用于开发概念机和优选武器系统概念(PWSC)。

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X-32 (Proto from Boeing) - Lost

X-32(波音原型机)-失败

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X-35 (Proto from Lockheed Martin) - Won, awarded the F-35 contract

X-35(原洛克希德马丁公司)-成功胜出,拿到了F-35合同

This type of competition inherently brings in the capitalistic element of business into defense. Companies, in an effort to outperform each other, recruit the best talent, use the best available tech to build the best aircraft within stipulated times. Think of it as Apple and Samsung trying to outperform each other with their iPhones and Galaxys.

Private players comparable to Boeing and LM are totally non existent in India. Even HAL isnt comparable. Moreover, govt is doing little or nothing to accommodate private players in the defense space. Private players like Tata, L&T and Mahindra are definitely willing to get into this space. But defense tech is not easy and none of them can do it alone without a JV with a foreign company. Getting a foreign company to invest in the defense sector where the FDI cap is 26% is not easy. Its ironical. The govt is willing to shell out billions of dollars on foreign hardware but doesn't allow them to set shops in this country.

这种竞争从本质上把企业的资本主义因素带入了国防产业之中。各公司为了超越彼此,纷纷招募最优秀的人才,利用现有的最佳技术在规定时间内造出最好的飞机。就像苹果和三星试图用iphone和galaxy互相竞争。

像波音和洛克希德马丁这样的私营企业在印度完全不存在。就连印度斯坦航空有限公司也无法与之媲美。此外,政府几乎没有或根本没有将国防领域开放给私人企业。像塔塔、L&T和马欣德拉这样的私营企业肯定愿意进入这个领域。但是,国防技术并不简单,没有一家公司能够在没有与外国公司合资的情况下独自完成这样的任务。让一家外国公司投资于外国直接投资上限为26%的国防行业并不容易。这很讽刺。政府愿意花费数十亿美元购买外国硬件,但不允许他们在这个国家开厂。

2) Lack of closer participation of the Indian Air Force in the design and development efforts

HAL, ADA, NAL, DRDO et al. who are working on the Tejas and a slew of other aircraft projects aren't inherently incompetent. A lot of this perceived incompetence has got to do with changing requirements and the lack of direction from the Air Force. The relationship between the Air Force and HAL et al. is almost like a client and service provider, each pointing fingers at each other never working in unison. The Indian Navy is a classic example of what can be achieved if they work more closely.

Unlike the Army and the Airforce, the Navy always showed keen interest in getting its hands dirty with design and development of its equipment. The Directorate of Naval Design (DND) was set up with that very motive. Just look at the successes the navy has had.

2)印度空军在设计和开发方面缺乏更紧密的参与

印度斯坦航空,防空署,国家航天实验室,印度国防研究与发展部等研发光辉战机和一系列其他飞机项目的机构并不是没有能力。这种无能在很大程度上与军方不断变化的要求和指导不足有关。空军和印度斯坦航空等机构之间的关系几乎就像客户和服务商,互相指责,从不协调一致地工作。印度海军就是一个经典的例子,证明了如果他们更紧密地合作就可以取得何种成就。

与陆军和空军不同的是,海军总是对自己动手设计和开发装备表现出极大的兴趣。海军设计理事会(DND)正是出于这样的动机而成立的。看看海军取得的成就就知道了。

Delhi class destroyers

德里级驱逐舰

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Vikrant class Aircraft carriers

维克兰特级航空母舰

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Arihant - SSBN (the crown jewel of the Indian Navy)

歼敌者号 - 弹道导弹战略核潜艇(印度海军的王牌)

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Fix these two and we will definitely be able to churn out better aircraft at much faster rates.

BTW, you cant compare F22 with Tejas. F22 is a 5th generation, stealth fighter. Tejas is a 4+ generation light combat aircraft. Apples and Oranges.

只要解决这两个问题,我们一定能够以更快的速度生产出更好的飞机。

顺便说一句,你不能把F22拿来和光辉战机作比较。F22是第五代隐形战斗机。光辉战机是4+代轻型战斗机。完全是两种不同的东西。

 

Tirthkumar Patel, Indian by Tan-Man-Dhan, Patriot since Birth

Originally Answered: Why is India so dependent on other countries for defense, weapons, aircraft, fighter planes etc? Does India not have the potential to have indigenous technology?

Well,forget Pakistan,we had the capabilities to beat even USA and China.But they were sabotaged.

How?

Remember Marut??

最初的问题是:为什么印度在国防、武器、飞机、战斗机等方面如此依赖其他国家?印度难道没有拥有本土技术的潜力吗?

好吧,忘了巴基斯坦吧,我们有能力打败美国和中国。但他们遭到了破坏。

怎么被破坏的?

还记得风神吗? ?

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It was India's 1st jet fighter aircraft ingenuously made by HAL way back in 1960. It was designed by well known German aircraft designer Kurt Tank with the help of many brilliant Indian engineers. It was equipped with guns,rockets and bombs.

Here is the image when Marut was towed to HAL runway for its 1st test flight.Scene is like a procession of marriage.

这是印度第一架印度斯坦航空在1960年制造的喷气式战斗机。它是由德国著名飞机设计师库尔特坦克在许多杰出的印度工程师的帮助下设计出来的。飞机装备了枪、火箭和炸弹。

这是风神被拖到印度斯坦航空公司跑道进行第一次试飞时的照片。场景就像婚姻的游行队伍。

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The only weakness(if you call it) was, its maximum speed was 1112 kmph which was slightly less than sound speed(1234 kmph).

(It participated in battles of 1965 and 1971.Remember the decisive Battle of Longewala ? Maruts were used to give support to Indian border posts. 3 Marut pilots were awarded Vir Chakra.)

Now the tragedy happens. As a part of organized propaganda,this awesome fighter was bullied in media,agents of foreign weapon companies and by those corrupt politicians who wanted commission by purchasing foreign weapons.

The tragedy doesn't stop here.The company which provided the jet-engines offered to modify the engines to make Marut supersonic but offer was rejected.

Result:

1.Only 3 squadrons got entry in IAF.

2.Kurt tank went back to Germany.

3.The golden chance to make India independent in war-weapons was lost.

4.India became dependent on foreign weapons and technology and thus victim of power-politics and diplomacy played due to them

5.India started losing valuable foreign exchange and is still losing.

唯一的缺点是,它的最大速度只有1112公里每小时,略低于声速(1234公里每小时)。

(它参加了1965年和1971年的战争。还记得朗格瓦拉决战吗?风神被军方用来支援印度的边境哨所。)

现在悲剧发生了。作为有组织的宣传活动的一部分,这架令人敬畏的战斗机在媒体、外国军火公司的特工以及那些想通过购买外国军火获得佣金的腐败政客那儿受到了欺凌。

悲剧还不止于此。提供喷气发动机的公司提出可以调整发动机,让风神达到超音速的速度,但遭到拒绝。

结果:

1.只有3个风神战机中队进入印度空军。

2.库尔特·坦克回到了德国。

3.让印度在战争军火方面自给自足的黄金机会已经流逝。

4.印度开始依赖外国武器和技术,从此沦为强权政治和外交的受害者

5.印度的外汇开始贬值,现在仍在继续贬值。

 

SivaBalan Kumaravel, An Indian Defense enthusiast!!

Originally Answered: Why in the world can't India manufacture fighter jets like the Rafale?

1.First to people here the Russian PAK-FA is not an Indo-Russian joint venture and that's an pure Russian prototype and only a preliminary R&d agreement is signed and that is nowhere related to those flying prototypes.

2.And to answer whether India can manufacture a fighter like Rafael with its present capabilities the short answer is no. This is not because of the time we got independence or slow development pace of LCA or IAF or something else....this is because of the soddy performance of our defence PSUs like HAL,DRDO etc...

3.To people who are speaking about the timing of Indian independence and the time we started the R&D on aviation I want to refer ISRO which sent probes to moon and mars with its own launcher during the same time period. Also I want to refer the missile division of DRDO which developed ICBM "Agni V" during the same time.

4.According to me LCA Tejas is not a true development until unless it has 80+ percentage of its parts made in India. At present it has more than 60+percentage of its parts from foreign vendors like engines,ejection seat,radar,missiles etc...although its an good but very much slow start.

5.Its a shame that a company to the size of HAL which is claiming Asia's one of the premiere aviation complex doesnt have its own full blown R&D facilities where it depends on DRDO agencies like NAL,ADA for design and development which is not a case with any international aviation major.

6.Even the Dhruv helicopter that HAL manufactures have a high foreign content including its engines!

最初的问题是:为什么印度造不出像阵风那样的战斗机?

1.首先,对这里的人来说,俄罗斯的PAK-FA不是印俄合资研发的,那是百分百的俄罗斯原型机,只签署了一个初步的研发协议,与那些飞行原型机没有任何关系。

2.要回答印度是否能以目前的能力制造出阵风这样的战机,答案是否定的。这不是因为我们独立得太晚,或者LCA或IAF研发速度慢,或者其他别的什么原因。而是因为我们国防领域的印度斯坦航空,印度国防研究与发展部表现得太差劲了。

3.对那些认为印度独立时间晚、我们开始飞机研发时间迟的人,我想举印度空间研究组织的例子来说明,它在同一时期用自己的发射器向月球和火星成功发射了探测器。我还想说说印度国防研究与发展部的导弹部门,他们在同一时期研发洲际弹道导弹“烈火5”。

4.在我看来,除非LCA光辉战机80%以上的零部件都在印度制造,否则它就不能算真正的研发。目前,其发动机、弹射座椅、雷达、导弹等零部件有60%以上来自国外供应商。虽然这是一个很好的开始,但是进展很慢。

5.令人羞愧的是,以印度斯坦航空公司如此之大的规模,声称自己是亚洲第一大航空企业,也不具备独立完备的研发设施,还依赖于国防研究与发展组织的机构,比如国家航天实验室,防空署来设计、研发,这与任何国际航空机构都不一样。

6.甚至印度斯坦航空制造的北极星直升机也有很高的国外技术含量,包括发动机也是!

7.Also in India aviation sector means its only HAL and it is willingly wanted to maintain that monopoly by adamently doing lobbying at the government level to curb any defense aviation contracts going to private sector.

8.Everybody know here the quality standards, timelines etc..which HAL follows and its is more than happy with the opaque deals with Russians where it will happily assemble Russian aircraft's like SU30 which has very little for domestic industries interms of growth.

9.Please don't priase LCA Tejas development. The outcome is very much delayed compare to India's development in space and missile tech where nothing is available from international countries or even from Russia. Where it is available to so extent there is no development like aero engine development and radar.

10.Development of an aircraft like Rafael require in depth R & D and concerned company should have all round capabilities which our only aviation major HAL lacks.

11.If India can manufacture a aircraft like Rafael means why are we begging for transfer technology as part of Rafael deal....its simply because we don't have it.

7.而且在印度,航空部门就只有一个印度斯坦航空,它当然希望通过在政府级别上进行强硬的游说来保持这种垄断地位,以限制任何国防航空合同流向私营企业。

8.这里的每个人都知道质量标准、时间表等。印度斯坦航空对与俄罗斯达成的不透明协议非常满意,它很乐意组装像SU30这样的俄罗斯飞机,而这类飞机对国内工业的整体增长几乎没有什么好处。

9.请不要夸耀LCA 光辉的研发。与印度在太空和导弹技术方面的发展相比,这一成果来得晚得多。

10.像阵风这样的飞机需要深入研发,相关公司应该具备全方位的实力,而我们唯一的印度斯坦航空正缺乏这一点。

11.如果印度能造阵风战机那样的飞机,我们为什么要乞求别人把技术转让给我们,作为阵风战机交易的一部分……原因很简单,就是因为我们没有这项技术。

 

Rajat Verma, I don't answer anonymously

Making an indigenous fighter aircraft is an art in itself which very few countries have mastered like US, France, Britain, germany, spain, Sweden, Russia and China.

India has been trying for the last 35 years to develop an indigenous fighter called Tejas but has not succeeded in its endeavor. Vis a vis china was smarter and they learned the art of reverse engineering the Russian aircraft which they were license manufacturing. How did China succeed and why India cannot emulate this fete.

When USSR disintegrated at that point China started preparations for the future and gave position in its fighter aircraft industry to many experienced and young russian aircraft designers. Moreover, instead of designing their fighters from scratch initially they reverse engineered Russian aircrafts like Mig-21 into F-7 fighters. Slowly and steadily as their grasping power increased they started manufacturing top of the line aircrafts and this they did by planting spies, which siphoned of top secret data regarding aircraft design and specifications.

制造国产战斗机本身就是一门艺术,很少有国家像美国、法国、英国、德国、西班牙、瑞典、俄罗斯和中国那样精通这门艺术。

在过去的35年里,印度一直在尝试开发一种名为光辉战机的本土战斗机,但没有成功。相比之下,中国更聪明,他们学习了对俄罗斯飞机进行逆向工程的技术,他们获得了制造许可。中国是如何取得成功的,为什么印度不能学习他们呢。

当苏联解体时,中国开始为未来做准备,并把战斗机工业的位置让给了许多经验丰富和年轻的俄罗斯飞机设计师。此外,他们最初并没有从零开始设计战斗机,而是对米格-21等俄罗斯飞机进行逆向研究,改成F-7战斗机。随着他们的能力越来越强,他们开始慢慢而稳定地制造顶级飞机,他们通过派驻间谍来实现这一点,这些间谍窃取有关飞机设计和规格的绝密数据。

Chinese spies hacked secret US weapons systems including F-35 Joint Strike Fighter: reports

Most importantly they had the vision, political will and they created aviation industry which is the best in Asia today.

Whereas India without having a prior knowledge about aircraft design or manufacture started the Tejas (LCA) project and the result is something which everyone knows. Moreover, even in LCA the engine is from US, RADAR is from Israel so what did the Indians contribute (Read HAL), making a composite flying aircraft body in 35 years at the humungous cost of ₹7,965.56 crore (Source Wikipedia). Awesome feat as it deserves a standing ovation!!

The fighter aircraft industry has to be modeled in the lines of china with very astute political will. Moreover Half hearted efforts will continue to lead no where, so what is the need of the hour.

据报道,中国间谍侵入了包括F-35联合攻击战斗机在内的美国秘密武器系统。

最重要的是,他们有远见,有政治意愿,他们创造了今天亚洲最好的航空工业。

而印度在没有飞机设计或制造方面的领先技术的情况下启动了光辉战机(LCA)项目,其结果是众所周知的。此外,即便如此,LCA的发动机来自美国,雷达来自以色列,印度人自己到底做了什么贡献呢?35年间,耗费了796.556亿的成本(维基百科),造出了七拼八凑的飞机。真是了不起的壮举,值得大家起立鼓掌!!

战斗机行业必须拥有非常敏锐的政治意愿,效仿中国的路线。此外,半心半意的努力会导致无果而终,所以现在的迫切需要是什么呢。

" PERFORM OR PERISH" and " HIRE AND FIRE"

  1. There should be no bureaucratic tangles, young talent from IITs and NIITs should be nurtured only on the basis of capability and not just recommendations and favoritism.
  2. Moreover talented NRI engineers who have worked in NASA, Lockheed Martin and Boeing etc should be lured back to India with perks, royalties and a good political will is needed in this.
  3. The Garbage which has crawled into organizations like DRDO (DEFENCE RESEARCH DESTRUCTIVE ORGANIZATION), HAL should be marginalized. They should be made accountable and "chalta hai", "kya Farak padta hai" attitude has to be done away with. There should be no excuse for non performance and where ever there is dearth of technical know how, it should be ironed out by collaboration, joint projects etc.

When these steps are truly inculcated then only the fruits will be borne out of years of hard work and we will create an aircraft industry which the entire world will look up in "AWE".

"执行或毁灭"和"雇佣和解雇"

1.不要让官僚主义掺和其中,对印度理工学院和印度国家信息技术学院的年轻人才应该根据才能进行培养,而而非推荐和偏袒。

  1. 此外,应该把在美国国家航空航天局、洛克希德·马丁公司和波音公司等工作过的有才华的工程师吸引回印度,这需要额外的津贴、奖励和政治决心。

3.像DRDO(国防研究破坏组织)这类组织里的垃圾,印度斯坦航空应该被边缘化。他们应该被问责。表现不佳不该有任何理由,在任何技术知识不充足的地方,应该通过合作、联合项目等来解决。

一旦这些措施得以真正实施,多年的辛勤工作才能结出硕果,我们才能建立起飞机制造工业,整个世界将会带着“敬畏”之心仰望我们。

 

Raj Narayan, Entrepreneur, Innovator, Aerospace Engineer

Originally Answered: Why doesn't India have really good, indigenously built fighter jets ?

A modern fighter aircraft is a very complex machine. It consists of a high performance aerodynamic airframe, constructed using a variety of modern materials such as aluminium and titanium alloys, carbon/glass fiber composites, etc., and a very high performance jet engine involving cutting edge technology and high precision machined parts. This only constitutes the basic flying platform, which is then equipped with a large variety of systems involving hydraulics, pneumatic, avionics, electrical and weapons related equipment to make it an efficient, sturdy, rugged, reliable, dependable, potent and safe machine. In fact,

“The quality of the systems and weapons fitted on a fighter aircraft is what really determines whether it is a "really good" or a mediocre aircraft”.

The design and development of a modern fighter aircraft needs a whole set of skills, capabilities, technologies and infrastructure extending over a very wide engineering spectrum. Further, due to the rapid advances in engineering technologies these days, such an industry would need to assimilate technologies as well as innovate their own continuously through R&D.

最初的问题是:为什么印度没有真正出色的国产战斗机?

现代战斗机是一种非常复杂的机器。它包括高性能的空气动力机身,采用各种现代材料,如铝和钛合金,碳/玻璃纤维复合材料等,和非常高性能的喷气发动机,涉及前沿技术和高精度加工零件。这还只能构成基本的飞行平台,还需配备大量的系统,包括液压、气动、航空电子、电气和武器相关设备,使其成为一个高效、坚固、可靠、强大和安全的机器。事实上,战斗机上装备的系统和武器的质量,才真正决定它究竟是一架“非常好”的飞机,还是一架平庸的飞机。

现代战斗机的设计和开发需要一整套技能、能力、技术和基础设施,涵盖非常广泛的工程领域。此外,由于当今工程技术的快速发展,这样的行业既需要吸收技术,也需要通过研发不断创新。

All these require highly qualified and trained engineers and scientists, who are encouraged and supported with the best of environment, infrastructure, financial backing and most importantly, quality leadership. Such an ecosystem has been sadly missing in this country all these years. With HAL being the exclusive PSU engaged in the development and manufacture of military aircraft for the last six decades, there has been very little opportunity for the private sector to get a foothold in this sector. One must also appreciate the fact that an aerospace industry is highly capital intensive with long gestation periods and hence no private sector organisation would have been able to afford the investments as made by the Govt. of India into HAL.

It is only in the last 15 years that large Indian business houses have evinced interest in foraying into aircraft manufacture. The synergy arising out of the joint participation of various aerospace organisations such as NAL, ADE, DRDO and HAL, by itself has resulted in a quantum jump resulting in the development of the LCA. This needs to be carried further with the active inclusion of the private sector, particularly in the areas of development of the airborne equipment falling under various categories.

What is required is a holistic and planned approach to developing the indigenous capability that synergises the strengths of the Govt. controlled aerospace organisations with the private sector companies that possess proven domain expertise in each of the engineering areas such as electronics, electrical, hydraulics, mechanical, pneumatic, and software engineering.

所有这些都需要高素质和训练有素的工程师和科学家,他们享受最好的环境、基础设施、财政支持,最重要的是,高素质的领导层的鼓励和支持。令人遗憾的是,这样的生态系统在印度多年来一直缺失。由于印度斯坦航空是过去60年里唯一一家从事军用飞机研发和制造的机构,私营企业在该领域获得立足点的机会微乎其微。人们还必须认识到,航空工业是高度资本密集的,孕育期很长,因此没有任何私营企业组织能够达到印度政府对印度斯坦航空的投资规模。

直到最近15年,印度大型企业才开始表现出进军飞机制造业的兴趣。由国家航天实验室,防空署,印度国防研究与发展部,印度斯坦航空等航空航天组织联合参与所产生的协同效应,使得LCA的发展出现了量子跃进。这需要私营企业积极参与,继续推动,特别是在各类机载设备的研发方面。

我们需要的是一种整体的、有计划的方法来发展本土制造能力,将政府控制的航空航天组织与私营企业的优势相结合,私营企业在电子、电气、液压、机械、气动和软件工程等每个工程领域都拥有成熟的专业知识。

 

Sri Harsha, works at ValueLabs

India has major players collaborating and partnering in and outside the country to develop military hardware.

TATA, L&T,ASHOK-LEYLAND are some major private leaders yet the decision makers or requirement handling of Armed forces is done by BEL, BHEL, BEML, HAL, DRDL, DRDO, HSL, BARC and similar government partners.

Land Systems: Still we depend heavily on the disputed Bofors artillery guns and long had the Army plans to procure US Howitzers. This did not stop DRDO to design a 155mm towed Artillery gun. So is the Pinaka multi rocket launching platform which took almost 12 years of development and MBT - Arjun.

Sea Systems: Apart from aquiring Akula Class submarines from Russia, Arihant class is an indegenious project with a decent operational and payload capability. And the ship building did not stopped at frigates but advanced through Godavari class destroyers and Amphibious vessels to get the Vikramaditya class carriers.

Air Systems: Tejas made history , however there are Light Combat Helicopters, small UAV’s which are developed for Army, Navy & Airforce.

Space Systems: ASLV, GSLV and PSLV put more eyes in the space than anyone comparing the costs, which again is multirole - civilian & military. It doesn’t have a fancy name like Space Command, yet it is functional.

Missile Systems: AGNI, Prithvi and Brahmos are few to be named.

印度拥有在国内外合作开发澳门足球陪率硬件的主要参与者。

塔塔、L&T、阿肖克-利兰是私营企业的主要领军者,但军队的决策或需求处理是由巴拉特电子有限公司、印度巴拉特重型电力有限公司、贝姆勒公司、印度斯坦航空公司、印度国防研究与发展实验室、印度国防研究与发展组织、印度斯坦造船有限公司、巴巴原子研究中心和类似的政府合作伙伴完成的。

陆地系统:我们仍然严重依赖有争议的博福斯火炮,长期以来军方一直计划采购榴弹炮。这并没有阻止印度国防研究与发展组织设计155毫米口径牵引火炮。皮纳卡多管火箭发射平台(已经历经了近12年的发展)和阿尔琼主战坦克也是如此。

海洋系统:除了来自俄罗斯的阿库拉级潜艇,歼敌者级是一个本土研发项目,具有良好的操作和有效载荷能力。造船计划并不止步于护卫舰,而是继续建造了戈达瓦里级驱逐舰和水陆两栖舰艇,最终建造了维克拉马蒂亚号航母。

空中系统:光辉战机创造了历史,但是印度也有轻型战斗直升机、小型无人机,它们是为陆军、海军和空军研发的。

太空系统:增强型卫星运载火箭、地球同步卫星运载火箭和极轨卫星运载火箭比任何国家都注重成本,这又是一个多用途的项目——既能民用,也能军用。它没有像太空司令部这样花哨的名字,但它很强大。

导弹系统:拥有“烈火”、“普里特维”和“布拉莫斯”等几种导弹。

There are multiple systems & technologies which are acquired from Russia, US, Israel, South Korea, Japan, France, Germany, Italy which are upgraded with home made tech along with OEM upgrades. Sukhoi MKI is an example of such system but not the only one.

Financial constraints exist which contribute to majority of delays nevertheless the developments are trying to reach the tip of the peak.

In current global scenario, it is impossible to say 100% indegenious which is practically impossible for any country. F22 is said to be built by LM, but how many foriegn brains contributed to the 5th Gen flight is to be noted. No one wants to reinvent the wheel, but make the wheel smoother and better. That is what major countries do. There is a disadvantage is relying on foriegn military hardware but countries like India are intelligent enough to get hardware with tech transfer license to customise the acquired hardware within the permissible limits of OEM. India has exceeded the expectations of OEM in terms of modifications. Flanker MKI is considered better than the Su-30 and at par with Su-35. The Brahmos missile system is a successful collaboration with Russia. That made the Russians invite India to collaborate on the FGFA Project.

Nuclear Arsenal is also no less and comparable to other forms of WMD.

从俄罗斯、美国、以色列、韩国、日本、法国、德国、意大利等国采购的多个系统和技术均采用国产技术进行升级,同时进行原始设备制造商升级。苏霍伊-姆基就是这样一个系统的例子,但不是唯一一个。

财政上的制约导致了大部分的延误,尽管如此,研发正在努力达到顶峰。

在当前的全球形势下,不可能说100%国产,这对任何国家来说都是不可能的事。F22据说是LM制造的,但是有多少外国专家参与,还有待观察。没有人想重走发明之路,而是希望对发明机型不断的提升、改进。这就是主流国家所做的。依赖外国澳门足球陪率硬件有一个缺点,但印度这样的国家足够聪明,能够获得具有技术转让许可证的硬件,在原始设备制造商允许的限度内定制采购的硬件。印度在改装方面超过了原始设备制造商的预期。侧卫MKI被认为比Su-30更出色,可与Su-35相媲美。布拉莫斯导弹系统是与俄罗斯的一次成功合作。这使得俄罗斯邀请印度在第五代战机项目上进行合作。

印度队核武库也不比其他种类的大规模毁灭性武器差,不相上下。

 

Rohith Kumar, works at Hyderabad, Telangana, India

Originally Answered: Why is India so dependent on other countries for defense, weapons, aircraft, fighter planes etc? Does India not have the potential to have indigenous technology?

India's government has turned down its military's request to expand the acquisition of 36 fighter planes from Dassault Aviation SA to plug vital gaps, officials said, nudging it to accept an indigenous combat plane 32 years in the making.

Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi's decision, in line with his Make-in-India policy to encourage domestic industry, is a blow for not only the French manufacturer but also others circling over the Indian military aviation market worth billions of dollars.

The push for India's struggling Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) also comes at a time when the Indian Air Force (IAF) is at its weakest operational strength since the 1962 war against China, which is causing anxiety within military circles.

Since it took over last year, the Modi administration has repeatedly said its overriding goal is to cut off the military's addiction to foreign arms which has made it the world's top importer.

The air force wanted the government to clear an additional 44 Rafale medium multirole aircraft on top of the 36 that Modi announced during a visit to Paris this year that are to be bought off-the-shelf to meet its urgent requirements.

Read: Rafale fighter jets deal between India and France in jeopardy

最初的问题是:为什么印度在国防、武器、飞机、战斗机等方面如此依赖其他国家?印度难道没有掌握本土技术的潜力吗?

印度官员说,印度政府拒绝了军方提出的从达索航空公司多采购36架战斗机以填补重大缺口的要求,迫使印度军方接受研发了32年的国产战斗机。

印度总理纳伦德拉莫迪的决定符合他鼓励国内工业发展的“印度制造”政策,这不仅对法国制造商是一个打击,对其他觊觎印度军用航空市场的公司也是一个打击。印度军用航空市场价值数十亿美元。

印度对苦苦研发多年的光辉轻型战斗机的推动,正值印度空军处于1962年中印战争以来作战实力最为薄弱之际,这在澳门足球陪率圈内引发了焦虑。

自去年上台以来,莫迪政府一再表示,其首要目标是切断军方对外国武器的依赖,这种依赖使得印度成为全球最大的武器进口国。

印度空军希望政府在莫迪今年访问巴黎期间宣布的36架阵风中型多用途飞机的基础上,再新增采购44架阵风中型多用途飞机。

印度和法国之间的阵风战机交易岌岌可危。

But a defense ministry official said that Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar had told the Indian air force that there weren't enough funds to expand the Rafale acquisition and that it must induct an improved version of the indigenous Tejas-Mark 1A.

"The IAF (air force) needs to have a minimum number of aircraft at all times. The LCA is our best option at this stage, given our resource constraints," the defense official said.

"The Rafale is our most expensive acquisition. The LCA is our cheapest in the combat category."

India's air force says its requires 45 fighter squadrons to counter a "two-front collusive threat" from Pakistan and China. But it only has 35 active fighter squadrons, parliament's defense committee said in a report in April citing a presentation by a top air force officer.

With the drawdown of Soviet-era MiG 21 planes under way, the air force would be down to 25 squadrons by 2022 at the current pace of acquisitions, it told the committee.

Cleared by the government in 1983, the LCA designed by the government's Defense Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) was meant to be the backbone of the air force due for induction in 1994.

Instead, it suffered years of delay and chaos with scientists trying to build the world's most modern light combat aircraft from scratch, including the engine.

但印度国防部一名官员说,印度国防部长帕里卡尔曾对印度空军说,印度没有足够的资金来扩大“阵风”战机的采购,印度军方必须引进国产“特贾斯-马克1A”改进型战机。

他说:“印度空军在任何时候都需要保有最低数量要求的飞机。考虑到我们的资源有限,轻型战斗机是现阶段我们最好的选择。

“阵风是我们最昂贵的军火采购。轻型战斗机是我们战斗机里最便宜的。”

印度空军表示,印度需要45个战斗机中队来应对来自巴基斯坦和中国的“两线威胁”。但议会国防委员会在4月份的一份报告中援引一名高级空军军官的陈述称,印度目前只有35个现役战斗机中队。

该委员会表示,随着前苏联时期MiG 21飞机数量的减少,按照目前的采购速度,到2022年,印度空军的战斗机中队数量将减少到25个。

政府在1983年通过了轻型战斗机的测验,由政府的国防研究和发展组织(DRDO)设计的轻型战斗机被认为是空军的骨干力量,于1994年服役。

但由于科学家们试图从零开始建造包括发动机在内的世界上最现代化的轻型战斗机,这架战斗机经历了多年的拖延和混乱。

Eventually they scrapped the engine, turning to GE Aviation and lowering their ambitions for a state-of-the-art fighter. So far, only one aircraft has been produced and even that is awaiting final operational clearance, now delayed to early 2016.

"In January this year, they had given one LCA ... which had not completed its flight testing. They handed over the papers to us. We do not make a squadron with one aeroplane. That is where we are," said an air force officer speaking on condition of anonymity.

Safety concerns

An independent investigation by the Comptroller and Auditor General of India into the LCA program identified 53 "shortfalls" in the plane. In a report in May, the auditor said that the plane wasn't as light as promised, the fuel capacity and speed were lower than required and there were concerns about safety.

Retired Air Marshal M. Matheswaran, a former deputy chief of the Integrated Defense Staff, said the LCA was obsolete.

"It is a very short-range aircraft which has no relevance in today's war fighting scenarios. If you are trying to justify this as a replacement for follow-on Rafales, you are comparing apples with oranges."

He said the plane was at best a technology demonstrator on which Indian engineers could build the next series of aircraft, not something the air force could win a war with.

最终,他们放弃了自主研发发动机,向通用航空采购,降低了研制最先进战斗机的雄心。到目前为止,只造出

了一架飞机,可就连这架飞机也还在等待最后的操作许可,现在已经推迟到2016年初。

“今年1月,他们交付了一架轻型战斗机……尚未完成飞行测试。我们无法用一架飞机组成一个中队。这就是我们的现状”一位不愿透露姓名的空军官员说。

安全问题

印度审计长和审计员对轻型战斗机项目进行的独立调查发现,飞机上有53处“缺陷”。审计员在5月份的一份报告中说,这架飞机并不像承诺的那么轻,燃油容量和速度低于要求,存在安全隐患。

退役空军上将、前综合防御部队副参谋长马士瓦兰说,轻型战斗机已经过时了。

“这是一种飞行距离非常短的飞机,无法适用于现状的战场。如果你想证明这是阵风战机的替代品,那你绝对就是在拿苹果和橘子做比较,完全是风马牛不相及的两种东西。”

他说,这架飞机充其量只是一个技术演示机,印度工程师可以在此基础上制造下一代飞机,但不是空军能够借此赢得战争的武器。

 

Rishabh Umrao, studied Mechanical Engineering at MVJ College of Engineering

Originally Answered: When will India succeed in manufacturing indigenous weapons?

Well I don't know if you were aware of this fact, but YES we are manufacturing weapons indigenously and not from 1 or 2 years but 4 decades.

We have recently built ALH, LCH, LAH, LCA TEJAS, PINAKA MISSILE, AAD ANTI MISSLE DEFENCE SYSTEMS, BRAHMOS, AEW&CS (Airborne Early Warning System), HAWK-i Trainer Jet and now India is planning to develop AMCA (advanced medium combat aircraft) in near future. I'll recommend you to just browse internet and see developments happened at AERO INDIA 2017 and see the deals signed.

And most importantly we are the only country in the world which has the power to deploy a BALLISTIC CRUISE MISSILE (BRAHMOS in this case) THROUGH A FIGHTER Plane (SU 30 MKI).

We have recently inducted Medium range Artillery Gun known as ATAGS (Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System) and DHANUSH Artillery Gun system.

We have developed 5th Generation Stealth Aircraft with Russia known as PAK-FA ( Perspektivny Aviatsionny Kompleks Frontovoy Aviatsii) and FGFA (Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft) and as expected these should be delivered by 2019–20 in IAF.

So saying that India has not developed any Indigenous Weapon is wrong.

And more important fact is that there is not a single country in the world which is manufacturing their weapons completely indigenously. Even USA's Aircraft components are being supplied from India. Point is that By what level are we able to make our product Indigenously.

So be proud of your country.

最初的问题是:印度何时才能成功造出本土武器?

我不知道你们是否意识到这个事实,但是没错,我们是自主制造武器的,但不是从1年前或2年前,而是40年前就开始了。

我们最近建造了ALH、LCH、LAH、LCA TEJAS、PINAKA导弹、AAD反导弹防御系统、布拉莫斯、AEW&CS(机载预警系统)、HAWK-i教练机,现在印度还计划在不久的将来研发AMCA(先进中型战斗机)。我建议你浏览一下互联网,看看印度航空2017年的发展,看看签署的协议。

最重要的是,我们是世界上唯一有能力通过战斗机(SU 30 MKI)部署弹道巡航导弹(布拉莫斯导弹)的国家。

我们最近引进了中程火炮,称为ATAGS(先进牵引火炮系统)和DHANUSH火炮系统。

我们与俄罗斯合作开发了第五代隐形飞机PAK-FA (Perspektivny Aviatsionny Kompleks Frontovoy Aviatsii)和FGFA(第五代战斗机),预计将于2019-2020年进入印度空军服役。

所以印度没有开发任何本土武器是错误的说法。

更重要的事实是,世界上没有任何一个国家能够完全自主制造武器。就连美国也会从印度进口飞机部件。关键是我们要达到什么水平才能使我们的产品本土化。

所以要为你的祖国感到骄傲。

 

Chandra Bhanu Prakash, Pensive; Impulsive; Inquisitive

Originally Answered: Why in the world can't India manufacture fighter jets like the Rafale?

We do not need to develop a fighter like the Rafale in question. This is our answer to the big fishes of the defence industry.

最初的问题是:为什么印度造不出阵风那样的战斗机?

我们不需要研制像阵风战机那样的战斗机。这就是我们对国防工业的回答。

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Its a Sukhoi PAK T-50 FGFA(Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft) jointly being developed by Russia and India. The Rafale, from the Dassault Aviation assembly line is a 3rd gen/3rd and a half gen fighter plane. It doesn't even come closer to what we are going to have in a couple of years.

The thing is that we are a poor country and hence have far more basic problems to deal with. We lack the infrastructure to go all out and develop ultra advanced weaponry. So, have to rely heavily on west for fulfillment of our defence equipments' need. Nevertheless, it hasn't stopped us from developing Brahmos or INS Vishakhapattnam or INS Kolkata. Agree, We are running at Mr. turtle's pace (due to financial and geo-political problems) but, In the not so distant future we are bound to dominate this field like all other fields we do.

这是由俄罗斯和印度联合开发的苏霍伊PAK T-50 FGFA(第五代战斗机)。阵风,来自达索航空装配线是第三代/第三代半战斗机,与我们在未来几年内将要拥有的东西完全不在同一个级别。

问题在于我们是一个穷国,因此有更多的基本问题需要解决。我们缺乏全力以赴开发超级先进武器的基础设施。因此,我们不得不严重依赖西方来满足我们国防装备的需求。尽管如此,这并没有阻止我们建造布拉莫斯或维沙哈帕特南或加尔各答。我同意,我们的进步确实非常龟速(由于财政和地缘政治问题),但在不久的将来,我们一定会像我们在其他领域所做的那样主导这个领域。

 

Swapnil Kabra, Chief Investment Strategist at Credible Cow (2011-present)

Originally Answered: Why in the world can't India manufacture fighter jets like the Rafale?

India became a free nation in 1947. By then, the European and the Russian nations had 50 year odd experience in the field. After independence, India had more chronic problems to deal with than concentrate on manufacturing defence equipments.

Over the period of time, India has emerged as one of the leading nations in research and technology (for instance, ISRO's Mars mission). However, manufacturing a world class fighter jet requires superior technological infrastructure. The deal with Dassault includes promise of domestic manufacturing in the form of offsets, joint ventures and contracts for purchase of components for Rafale. Mark my words, India would manufacture world class defence equipments in 20 years from now.

P.S. The design stage of Rafale started in 1978, it took its first flight in 1986 and was introduced in 2001: a production cycle of 23 years.

最初的问题是:为什么印度造不出阵风那样的战斗机?

1947年印度成为独立的国家。当时欧洲和俄罗斯国家已经在这一领域有了50多年的经验。独立后,比起集中精力制造国防装备,印度有更多的长期遗留问题亟待解决。

经过一段时间的努力,印度已经成为在科研和365betok方面的领先国家之一(例如,ISRO的火星任务)。然而,制造世界级战斗机需要出众的技术基础设施。印度与达索的协议包括承诺以抵消交易、合资建厂和“阵风”零部件采购合同等形式在国内生产。记住我在这里说的话,印度将在20年内制造出世界级的国防装备。

阵风战机的设计阶段始于1978年,1986年首次试飞,并于2001年推出:经历了23年的生产周期。

 

Eeshan Katoch

Originally Answered: Why is India so dependent on other countries for defense, weapons, aircraft, fighter planes etc? Does India not have the potential to have indigenous technology?

I am not an expert by any chance in this matter and whatever I have to say is with personal experience and random reading. The fact of the matter is that after independence India invested in low output ( more useful at the times ) technology like green revolution and stuff whereas our neighbours, the Chinese invested in high output technologies like nuclear power and weapons etc. Therefore, they have reaped a much greater benefit of that than us. Moreover, the metallurgy is India in not very good. The weapons that we have got from Russia ages ago work very fine, howsoever old they may be and the new age weapons that India has so called developed in the recent times is stuttering ahead due to huge design flaws which we realise very damn late( after inception) and really shitty metallurgy. The motors that they ( vintage Russia) provided us have never suffered a problem but new age Indian motors appear to have a lot of issues. Then again India is still not investing in R&D of weapons etc as aggressively as it should. The scientists in the few weapon research labs across India are also not too notch for the fact that they are paid stupidly and hence returns are expectedly less. The budget of this year also shows that even though the defence budget has increased, it is not on par with the rate at which we want to grow (search it up). The non existence of defence people in the defence ministry hierarchy is also a reason and a stupid one for that matter as we are only one of the few countries who have this problem in the world, a big loophole for the country wanting to be at least regional superpower. This leads to controversial decisions. Whereas the country might not have money for the project that the armed forces want and hence wants a cheaper option, the armed forces does not care about this because it's looking at it from its own perspective and a cheaper option will not, by any chance , improve its capabilities and the decision to go ahead with sub standard equipment leads to no increase in capability as well as a bad set of equipment.

Just a small perspective.....

最初的问题是:为什么印度在国防、武器、飞机、战斗机等方面如此依赖其他国家?印度难道没有本土技术潜力吗?

在这个问题上我绝不是专家,我要说的都是我个人的看法。事实是,独立后,印度把钱投向了投入产出比很低(在当时更有用)的技术,如绿色革命等,而我们的邻国中国,则投资于产出比高的技术,如核能和武器等。因此,他们从中获得的好处比我们多得多。此外,印度的冶金水平也不是很高。多年前我们从俄罗斯采购的武器不管多老多旧,都一直用的好好的,而印度最近研发的所谓新时代武器,由于巨大的设计缺陷和糟糕的冶金技术一直推进得不顺利。他们提供给我们的发动机从来没有出现过问题,但新时代的印度发动机似乎问题极多。然而,印度仍然没有积极地投资于武器研发。在印度为数不多的几个武器研究实验室里工作的科学家们,工资水平不高,因此回报预期也较低。今年的预算也表明,就算增加国防预算,也没能达到我们预期的增长幅度(搜索一下)。国防部高层中没有国防人才也是一个原因,而且是个很愚蠢的原因,我们是存在这个问题的为数不多的几个国家之一,这对希望成为至少是区域强国的我们来说,是个很大的漏洞。这导致了一些具有争议的决策。国家可能没有钱来满足武装部队的心愿,因此想要实惠一点的选择,而军方不关心这个,因为它是从自己的视角来看待,退而求其次的便宜货不可能改善军力,而采用较低标准的军备的决策对提高军队作战实力毫无用处。

以上就是我的个人看法。

 

Abhishek Raj, works at NIIT

Originally Answered: Why in the world can't India manufacture fighter jets like the Rafale?

The quick answer is a big YES. India can manufacture fighter jets like the Rafale or even better in coming decade.After almost 30 years of planning and development for the Tejas LCA, India is placed in a elite league of countries who can manufacture fighter aircrafts of their own.Though Tejas is not as capable and advanced as other current generation aircrafts, It has helped India to build a whole range of manufacturing hubs starting from Engines to ancillary parts.We now have dedicated industries to cater to this fighter aircraft aviation industries.The Indian government's "self-reliance" goals for the LCA include development of the three most sophisticated — and hence most challenging — systems: the fly-by-wire (FBW)flight control system (FCS), multi-mode pulse-doppler radar, and afterburning turbofan engine.After acquiring these most important built capabilities we are on the path of self reliance on fighter aircraft manufacturing.

最初的问题是:为什么印度造不出阵风那样的战斗机?

答案是大写的能。未来10年,印度绝对可以制造出阵风这样、甚至更好的战斗机。经过近30年的光辉轻型战斗机的设计和研发,印度已经跻身于能够自主制造战斗机的精英国家行列。尽管光辉战机不像其他当代飞机那么先进出色,但它帮助印度建立了从发动机到辅助部件的一系列制造中心。我们现在有了专门的工业为这种战斗机航空工业服务。印度政府对轻型战机的“自力更生”目标包括研发三种最复杂的,因此也是最具挑战性的系统:线控飞行(FBW)飞行控制系统(FCS)、多模脉冲多普勒雷达和加力涡轮风扇发动机。在获得这些最重要的建造能力之后,我们就走上了自力更生制造战斗机的道路。

A fully operational Tejas LCA:

光辉轻型战斗机:

光辉轻型战斗机
 

HAL Tejas

印度斯坦航空的光辉战机

Now the answer to why can't we manufacture if we have achieved so much.

The answer lies in a mix of indian mindset and current operational need of IAF.We are in deep trouble with respect to number of fighter aircraft squadron in IAF. We require more than 250 aircrafts in less than 5 years.

Otherwise in case of two front war from both China and Pakistan , we will be in big trouble. So,the quick and tested solution is buying the ones like Rafale which has proved its mantle in a gruesome selection process by Indian forces. We have also a clause for investing back the 30% of buy price in India itself which will help create more jobs in this industry.

And now about Indian mindset.We are people who always have considered the foreign made things as more robust and technically advanced. So even if produce something like Rafale ,the world and more importantly we ourselves wont consider it as a big achievement. And the process of development fighter aircraft requires more than just base industries, it requires a conducive environment and supporting government.If India starts investing handsomely in this industry , people will start questioning its intentions and whole lot of ruckus will start.

So in the best interest of our country, the current Rafale deal is the need of hour. However, in the long run we are on path of developing our own fighters as in case of joint venture of India and Russia the T-50 PAK FA and the very indigenous Tejas LCA 2 together with our own fighter engines.Amen.

现在我来回答一下,既然我们已经取得了这么多成就,为什么我们生产不来呢?

答案在于印度的思维模式和印度空军当前的作战需求。我们在印度空军战斗机中队的数量上遇到了严重的麻烦。我们需要在5年内拥有250多架飞机。

否则,如果印度同中国和巴基斯坦发生两线战争,我们就会有大麻烦。因此,快速和可行的解决方案是购买像“阵风”这样的战机。我们还制定了一项条款,规定法国要把采购金额的30%投资回印度,这将有助于在这个行业创造更多的就业机会。

现在谈谈印度人的心态。我们一直认为外国制造的东西更强大,技术更先进。更重要的是,我们自己不认为这是一个巨大的成就。而战斗机的研发过程需要的不仅仅是基础产业,它需要一个有利的环境和政府的支持。如果印度开始对这个行业进行大力投资,人们就会质疑它的意图,开始各种骚动。

因此,为了我们国家的最大利益,目前我们急需采购阵风。但从长远来看,我们正在研发我们自己的战斗机,就像印度和俄罗斯的合资企业T-50苏霍伊航空多用途前线战斗机和本土的光辉战机2以及我们自己的战斗机一样。

A prototype PAK FA:

苏霍伊航空多用途前线战斗机原型:

9d9e0d8fgy1g2e82u4uf8j20gq09fdpg.jpg
 

 

Suyash Chandak, Chocolate Marketer, MBA and BSc (Economics)

Originally Answered: Why doesn't India manufacture its own fighter planes? Wouldn't it be cheaper and safer than buying from any other country?

International treaties and laws prevent sale or transfer of technology of nuclear capable missiles. But there are no such law preventing sale of fighter planes by one country to another. 

This meant India was and is a market for fighter planes. This lead to various countries and defence companies lobbying heavily to sell their products. This not only involved promoting their product but also involved shunting the development of any indigenous competitor. 

Since the commission of Tejas on 1983 India has finalised deals to import Jaguar, Mirage 2000, Sukhoi 30 MKI and finally MMRCA (Dassault Rafale finalised.) 

The same hasn't happened to our guided missile and space program. Sanctions did deny them technological transfer but they also acted as a protection from foreign company lobbying.  

This signifies the importance of transparent defence procurement.  

But having said this the recent procurements by IAF like Sukhoi 30 MKI, Dassault Rafale and Sukhoi FGFA (to be inducted post 2017) are as good as any fighter plane in their respective categories. We need to have a combination of indigenous and foreign technology.

最初的问题是:为什么印度不自己造战斗机?难道自己造不比从其他国家购买更便宜、更安全吗?

国际条约和法律禁止出售或转让具有核能力的导弹技术。但没有法律禁止一个国家向另一个国家出售战斗机。

这意味着印度过去和现在都是战斗机市场。这导致许多国家和防务公司在印度大力游说,销售自己的产品。这不仅涉及推广他们的产品,还涉及阻扰任何本土竞争对手的发展。

自1983年光辉战机委员会成立以来,印度已经敲定了进口捷豹、幻影2000、苏霍伊30 MKI以及最终的MMRCA(阵风达索最终敲定)的协议。

同样的事情并没有发生在我们的导弹和太空计划上。制裁确实阻止了他们的技术转让,但也起到了保护他们免受外国公司游说的作用。

这意味着国防采购的透明度有多么重要。

但尽管如此,印度空军最近采购的苏霍伊30mki、达索·阵风战机和苏霍伊FGFA战机(将于2017年后服役)在各自的类别中都很出色。我们需要本土技术和外国技术的结合。

 

Mike Mckenna, Lots of flights in Warbird Jets

Indians perfectly capable of developing their own aircraft and weapons systems and they have done so. I think they are very smart in letting OTHER countries spend the billions of dollars in research and testing and THEN buy this foreign product when it has been proven. By remaining non aligned and a bit coy, the Indians can buy the best of what Europe, Russians, Japanese, and American’s have to offer. Indian Aero-Space research and manufacturing may suffer from this policy, but the Indians end up with the best products at the best price. This is what National Defense is really about, protecting your Country without Bankrupting it.

印度人完全有能力开发自己的飞机和武器系统,他们已经做到了。我认为他们非常聪明,让其他国家花费数十亿美元进行研究和测试,然后在这个外国产品得到验证后再购买。通过保持不结盟和有点腼腆,印度人可以买到欧洲、俄罗斯、日本和美国所能提供的最好的东西。印度的航空航天研究和制造可能会受到这一政策的影响,但印度人最终会以最好的价格获得最好的产品。这就是国防的真正意义,在不让国家破产的情况下保护你的国家。

 

Sumit Bisht, an aam aadmi

Originally Answered: Why indian defence purchases/imports most of its weapons ,aircrafts,ships etc.Why can't we indigenously make weapons like israel,china,france etc?

It is cheaper to buy a completely built product rather than research and develop one from scratch. Not everything is purchased as a completly built unit. Some are purchased under technology transfer/local manufacture or even leased to Indian armed forces to enable it to gain expertise.

Some of the successful defense weapons that have originated from India are actually products of JV between other countries and this is going to continue for foreseeable future.

Over time, this will change and the indigenous production will prove to be cheaper- a fact that is going to be reality in Indian navy earlier than the army and air force.

最初的问题是:为什么印度国防要购买/进口大部分的武器、飞机、船只等等?为什么我们不能像以色列、中国、法国这样自己造武器?

购买成品比从头开始研发要便宜。并不是所有的东西都是作为成品采购的。有些是通过技术转让/当地制造购买的,甚至租借给印度武装部队,让我们能够获得技术。

印度自主研发的一些成功国防武器实际上是与其他国家合资的产品,这种情况在可预见的未来还将继续下去。

随着时间的推移,这将会改变,本土生产会更便宜—这一事实将成为现实,印度海军将早于陆军和空军实现。

 

Anonymous

Because one time we tried to build on our own, we ended up with Arjun main battle tank. Development started in 1974, prototype built in 1984, initial pre-production of 14 tanks in 1988. During the testing, the performance was so poor, the Army ordered improvements. Despite several attempts to kill the project, higher ups kept the project alive, after spending 20 times the original budget and almost 20 years behind plan, the first production Arjun tanks rolled off the assembly in 1999. But, further delays were caused by production issues and the tanks weren't fully deployed until 2009. The total production is 248 tanks. Because of the delays, Indian Army's current main battle tank is T-90S. Although, Arjun Mk2 program was much more successful, the original Arjun program disaster should be enough to pause anyone that thinks domestic production is always best.

我们尝试过自己建造,成果是阿尔琼主战坦克。坦克的研发始于1974年,原型建造于1984年,最初在1988年小批量生产14辆坦克。在测试期间,性能非常差,军队下令改进。尽管有几次试图终止该项目,但在花费了比原预算多20倍的资金、且比原计划落后近20年之后,高层仍维持了该项目的存续。但是,生产问题导致了进一步的延迟,直到2009年坦克才得以全部部署,总产量248台。由于延期,印度陆军目前的主战坦克是T-90。尽管Arjun Mk2项目成功得多,但Arjun项目最初的灾难应该足以让所有认为国产最好的人闭嘴。

 

Akhil T Raman, Rockstar! Cleverly disguised as an Engineer :P

There are several reasons for this...

  1. The time involved in developing a technology for the defence is very high especially due to the procedures involved. So in many cases it is better to go for a Foreign procurement as the deal would be completed much faster.
  2. Defense deals involve a lot of money. Our politicians and beaurocrats are so corrupt that even if the technology is available or could be developed within the country, they lobby for foreign companies. Take for example the case of IAFs Turbo-trainer aircraft deal with Pilatus. Though the country's biggest aerospace company HAL proposed to develop an indegenous aircraft, the HTT40, IAF went for a procurement deal with Pilatus. The point of irony in this case was that the cost of an indegenously developed HTT40 aircraft would have been much less than that of the Pilatus aircraft.

有以下几个原因…

1. 研发一种国防技术需要的时间非常长。因此在许多情况下最好进行海外采购,交易完成的速度会快得多。

2. 国防交易耗资巨大。我们的政客和官僚非常腐败,就算国内有可用的技术或可以自助研发,他们也会为外国公司游说。以印度空军涡轮教练机交易为例。尽管印度最大的航空公司印度斯坦航空提议开发一种名为HTT40的国产飞机,但印度空军还是与皮拉特斯达成了一项采购协议。具有讽刺意味的是,自主研发的HTT40飞机的成本比皮拉特斯飞机要低得多。

 

Rehaan Chaudhary, studied at Manav Rachna International School

Originally Answered: Why is India unable to build their own fighter jets?

India is one of the few nations who actually are capable of building however the fighters are not as good as f22s or su35s but still they are awesome.

So far India has made 3 aircrafts

1)HAL HF-24 Marut

最初的问题是:为什么印度自己不会造战斗机?

印度是少数几个真正有能力建造战斗机的国家之一,只是比不上F22或SU35而已,但仍然很厉害。

到目前为止,印度已经制造了3架飞机

1)印度斯坦航空的HF-24 Marut

印度斯坦航空的HF-24 Marut
 

It was made in 1960s and was comparable with the best aircrafts but due to some amazing statesmen we had to drop it.

它是在20世纪60年代制造的,当时可跟最好的飞机媲美,但由于某些政治家,我们不得不放弃它。

2)HAL Ajeet

2)印度斯坦航空的Ajeet

印度斯坦航空的Ajeet
 

It was a decent aircraft made in 1977

这是1977年制造的一架不错的飞机

3)HAL Tejas

3) 印度斯坦航空的光辉战机
 

印度光辉战机

It is a pretty stealthy aircraft due to the use of composites and has various models

这是一架相当隐形的飞机,因为使用了复合材料,拥有多种原型机

1)Tejas Mk1

2)Tejas mk1a

And the other one for aircraft carriers

By 2032 India we will get a 5++ generation aircraft

HAL AMCA

1)光辉Mk1

2)光辉Mk1a

还有一种可用于航空母舰上

到2032年,印度将拥有一架5+代飞机

印度斯坦航空的AMCA

印度斯坦航空的AMCA
 

 

Thanks

谢谢。

 

Samar Rehman Patel, lived in India

The level of technical expertise one is required to make weapons is extremely high. India, does posses this ability but not the ability to reproduce these on a large scale.

Also, I think that importing these goods from US/ Israel might be financially speaking , more economical than say, setting up our own industries.

Setting our own industries for weapons in a resource starved nation like ours also opens up avenues for illegal disbursement of blue-sheets and black market weapons.

We do construct our ships and aircrafts at HAL. Most of the very cutting edge technology has been patented by private defense contractors and industries in the aforementioned countries. And as this is a sensitive topic of defense, the governments behind these organizations defend their patents furiously, so one has to buy it through, if one wants to use it.

And China was the biggest importer of weapons, my friend, till a few years ago.

制造武器所需要的专门技术水平是非常高的。印度拥有这种能力,但没有能力大规模复制。

此外,我认为从美国/以色列进口这些商品可能比建立我们自己的工业更经济划算。

在我们这样一个资源匮乏的国家建立自己的武器工业,也会为非法发放蓝皮书和黑市武器开辟道路。

我们确实通过印度斯坦航空来建造船只和飞机。大多数尖端技术已由上述国家的私人国防承包商和工业获得专利。由于这是一个敏感的辩护话题,这些组织背后的政府为他们的专利进行了激烈的辩护,因此,如果有人想使用,就必须花钱购买。

亲们,直到几年前,中国还是最大的武器进口国。

 

Matt Pickering, Been a military aviation nut since childhood.

Originally Answered: Why can India not make its own fighter jets?

It has. It has designed two indigenous fighters, several other aircraft and has built other foreign designs under license.

The HAL Kiran is an intermediate two-set jet trainer.

The HAL HF-24 Marut was India’s first native fighter design and it was its first supersonic design.

The HAL Tejas is India’s latest supersonic design and is in the process of entering service.

India has built the MiG-21, SEPECAT Jaguar and Su-30 under license.

Seems to me India is fairly capable of making its own fighter jets.

最初的问题是:为什么印度自己不会造战斗机?

印度造了。印度已经设计了两架本土战斗机,并在许可下造了一些外国设计的飞机。

印度斯坦基兰(HAL Kiran)是一种中级双座喷气教练机。

印度斯坦HF-24 Marut是印度第一款国产战斗机,也是第一款超音速战斗机。

光辉战机是印度最新的超音速设计,目前已进入军队服役。

印度已经在许可下建造了米格-21、捷豹SEPECAT和苏-30。

在我看来,印度是有能力自己造战斗机的。

 

Shanker K.Vee., former Technical Writer at Retired (2006-2015)

Originally Answered: Why in the world can't India manufacture fighter jets like the Rafale?

I think the need for developing weapons through wholly indigenous efforts is over. I would discourage any research from scratch that is equivalent to re-inventing the wheel. It was necessary during 1990's but hardly makes any sense today.

Indigenous efforts are worthless for all available weapons for the following reasons:

1.It's very costly and time consuming. By the time we could make a prototype, world would have moved over quite far away from us.

2.HAL doesn't seem to absorb\not allowed to absorb the high technology. It appears to get only screw-drive technology of the crafts it manufactures for decades. I don't think, from the scratch, it can design/make equivalent crafts it manufactures so long.

3.The technology denial of 90's is over, and countries are very eager to share technology and or make the weapons in India. Even, US is eager for joint development.

4.Our DRDO is notorious for unending delays with successful release nowhere at sight. Recall abandonment of Cauvery Engine, and yet to succeed 'Intermediate Jet Trainer'. Even with technical collaboration at latter stages, the problems remain. Already, DRDO labs have their plates full.

So, the best practice would be to go for 'Make in India' or the joint development right from the beginning as applicable.   

最初的问题是:为什么印度不会造阵风那样的战斗机?

我认为,完全通过本土努力开发武器的需要已经结束。我不鼓励任何从零开始,相当于重走一遍发明之路的研究。这在90年代是必要的,但在今天几乎没有任何意义。

由于下列原因,对所有现有武器来说,国产化的努力都是毫无价值的:

1.非常昂贵费时。当我们制造出一个原型时,时代又会遥遥地把我们甩在身后。

2.印度斯坦似乎并没有吸收——或不能吸收高365betok。它似乎只获得了几十年来所生产工艺品的螺旋传动技术。我不认为,从零开始的话,印度斯坦航空能设计/制造出一样出色的产品。

3.90年代对技术的拒绝已经过去,各国都渴望在印度分享技术或制造武器。甚至美国也渴望和印度共同发展。

4.我们的DRDO的无休止的延迟已经臭名昭著,根本看不到成功发布的希望。回忆一下放弃考维利发动机,还未成功的“中级喷气教练机”。即使在技术合作的后期阶段,问题仍然存在。

所以,最好的做法是从一开始就选择“印度制造”或联合研发。

 

Shumayel Liton

This has largely to do with lack credible R&D powered industry. While it is true that india has organizations such as DRDO, HAL, etc, none of these organizations work by injecting R&D and innovation. Instead, the focus is on commercialisation, fear of failure, profits, and copying western designs. The fact is that a large chunk of R&D has potential of going to failure and while the west is willing to invest to absorb this, india's focus is on making profits rightaway and/or copying. In india, any product can officially be called indigenous, if it uses around 40-50% of components produced in india. The other reasons are incapacity in the education system to produce skillfull workers, and process based organizations with focus on high quality control. Indian mentality also has a large to play in it, since indians want to import as much instead of making on their own.

这在很大程度上与缺乏可靠的研发动力产业有关。虽然印度确实有DRDO、HAL等组织,但这些组织都不是靠注入研发和创新来工作的。相反,这些组织关注的焦点是如何商业化、对失败的恐惧、利润如何和模仿西方设计。事实是,很大一部分研发可能会失败,西方愿意投资并接受失败,但印度只关心能否立即盈利和(或)复制。在印度,任何产品如果使用了印度生产的大约40-50%的零部件,都可以被正式称为本土产品。另一个原因是教育系统缺乏培养高技能工人的能力,以及注重高质量控制的组织。印度人的心态也有很大的影响,因为印度人想要进口尽可能多的东西,而非自己生产。

 

Rahul .Gokhale

I have answered this question elsewhere but to recap, we do not have the expertise or the financial resources at this time to build a fighter jet. Fighter jets are significant undertakings and require a mature well developed industrial base in many different areas like engines, electronics, radars, software (for FCS), displays, etc. India did not have a program in aeronautics right till 1990. To develop fighters we would need to build expertise in at least the main components that make up a fighter jet and this would take significant amount of financial resources which we do not have. Unless and until drastic investments are made in human, technical, and other resources related to the defense industry i suspect we are always going to play catch up.

我在其他地方已经回答过这个问题,但总而言之,我们目前没有制造战斗机的专业知识或财政资源。战斗机是一项重大的工程,需要在发动机、电子、雷达、软件、显示器等许多不同领域拥有成熟、发展良好的工业基础。印度直到1990年才有航空项目。为了发展战斗机,我们需要至少对组建战斗机的主要部件学习专门知识,这需要大量的财政资源,这正是我们缺乏的。除非在人力、技术和国防工业相关的其他资源上进行大规模投资,否则我不认为我们能迎头赶上。

 

Damien Leimbach, USAF avionics technician, U-2s

its the culmination of several different reasons which I shall try to briefly state.

India was not directly involved in any international, large scale conflicts during the dawning of the electronics age, which arguably happened in the 40’s and 50’s.

As a result, you had no reason to dump billions of dollars into domestic arms developers, engineering firms, electronics companies, software and computer companies, or materials research companies.

Countries like the U.S. did, largely because we could afford to, and largely because we were involved in a cold war arms race at the time.

So India could try to catch up, but it would be a long, expensive road, and unless you really think you can produce something genuinely better, the money would be better spent on purchasing what you need.

One way for you to catch up quickly would be to reach an agreement with a superpower where you domestically produce someone else's design under license. Its more expensive, but the lessons you learn could go a long way towards erasing that 70 year deficit.

这是几个不同原因共同造成的结果,我来简单说说这些原因。

在电子工业时代初期,也就是40年代和50年代,印度没有直接卷入任何国际性的大规模冲突。

因此,你们没有理由向国内武器开发商、工程公司、电子公司、软件和计算机公司或材料研究公司投入数十亿美元的研发经费。

美国之类的国家会这么做,很大程度上是因为我们负担得起,很大程度上也是因为我们当时卷入了冷战时期的军备竞赛。

所以印度可以试着迎头赶上,但这会是一条漫长而昂贵的道路,除非你真的认为你能生产出真正更好的东西,否则最好把这笔钱花在购买你所需要的东西上。

让你快速迎头赶上的一个方法是与某个超级大国达成协议,在这个协议中,你可以凭借许可在国内生产别人的设计。这样做确实比较费钱,但你从中学到的经验教训,可能对消除70年的缺漏大有帮助。

 

Shawn Noronha, The rational man.

Originally Answered: Why does India have to purchase fighter jets from other countries?

Because we only have quantity of engineers with close to Zero quality. Our education is heavy focused on theory only, and practicals are a joke.

Of the few % of bright students who do exist, and that are capable of doing great things, our infamous reservation based system makes sure that they don't get seats, and undeserving and underachieving students get to take their place instead.

Sad but true, most Indians become highly successful when they join foreign institutions in the west.

最初的问题是:为什么印度要从其他国家购买战斗机?

因为我们的工程师只有数量,质量趋向于零。我们的教育偏重于理论,而实践只是个笑话。

少数聪明的学生确实存在,他们有能力做伟大的事情,但我们臭名昭著的预留制不给他们留席位,反而是那些不够格、成绩不佳的学生取而代之了。

可悲但真实的情况是,大多数印度人在西方加入外国机构后取得了很大的成功。

 

Ranga Prasad, Political scientist, Historian and Spiritualist

No. India doesnt have the technology.

We didnt have FDI for these many years. All countries including USA and USSR have private players which will give penetration.

Also, from Nehru's period, we concentrated only on infrastructure and not on human resources. Even the Mmodi government has slashed 15% for research. Untill, we dont give importance to research, we wont have technology. And with no technology, we will end up with NO.1 in defense importer.

不。印度没有这种技术。

我们已经很多年没有外商直接投资了。包括美国和苏联在内的所有国家都有私营企业,这能带来突破。

另外,从尼赫鲁时期开始,我们只关注基础设施,而非人力资源。就连莫迪政府也削减了15%的研究经费。我们不重视研究,就不会有技术。如果没有技术,我们最终将成为国防第一大进口国。

 

Aathan, Indian is my second identity

India is capable making any kind of jets and weapons. Give it a chance. Two sectors, Space exploration and Nuclear power were totally closed to India. India has developed those two complex technology areas on its own. In space exploration India is second to none, a stage we reached overcoming many sabotage attempts . We are not in need in nuclear technology either and the purchase of power reactors from foreign countries are for Geo Political reasons only. But we are unable to be self reliant even in small arms. Reason for this is corruption. Defense imports are lucrative to corrupt people. We would have indigenous 5+ generation fighters jets by now if we were not supplied with jets from other countries.

印度有能力制造任何类型的飞机和武器。要给它一个机会。空间探索和核动力两个领域对印度完全封锁。但印度靠自己在这两个复杂的技术领域闯出了天地。在太空探索方面,印度是首屈一指的。我们也不需要核技术,从外国购买动力反应堆仅仅是出于地缘政治原因。但是,即使是在小武器中,我们也不能自力更生。原因是腐败。国防进口对腐败分子是有利可图的。如果没有其他国家的飞机供应,我们到目前为止将拥有本土的5+代战斗机。两个部门,空间探索和核能对印度完全关闭。印度已经独立开发了这两个复杂的技术领域。在太空探索方面,印度是首屈一指的,我们已经克服了许多破坏企图。我们也不需要核技术,从外国购买动力反应堆只是出于地缘政治原因。但是,即使在小武器方面,我们也无法自力更生。原因就是腐败。对腐败的人来说,进口国防武器是有利可图的。如果没有其他国家的飞机供应,我们现在应该造出国产的5+代战斗机了。

 

Ravi Chandra

India already manufactures Su30MKI, The problem with India is not manufacturing, but design and geo politics. After Hal marut(India's first fighter jet in 1960's), There was no follow up projects and all talent was lost in due time, While Tejas is different story, with no industry base and foreign powers trying to scuttle the project as they will loose big customer like India .

Second ADA is responsible for design of aircraft for planes not DRDO. thanks to Tejas MK I . ADA is designing MK II of Tejas and 5 th Gen Fighter AMCA . We started now hopefully in future we can design and develop jet on par with other world powers .

印度已经制造了Su30MKI,印度的问题不在于制造,而在于设计和地缘政治。在印度斯坦的Marut之后(印度60年代的第一架战斗机),没有后续项目,所有的人才都陆续流失了,而光辉战机则不同,没有工业基地,外国势力试图破坏这个项目,因为他们会失去像印度这样的大客户。

第二,国防部负责飞机的设计,而不是DRDO。感谢光辉MK I。国防部正在设计光辉的MK II和第5代战斗机。我们希望,将来我们能设计和开发出与其他世界强国相媲美的喷气式飞机。

 

Varun Rao, I don't know what to say... o_o

This is just based on all that i have read, but as of today, the Govt is not one that supports R&D. No matter how many ever institutes and organisations are opened and inaugurated, until there are sufficient funds and support by the Govt for R&D, an indigenous jet, or any other equipment for that matter, will not be.

到今天为止,政府并没有支持研发。无论成立了多少研究所和组织,在政府为研发提供足够的资金和支持之前,本土飞机或任何其他相关设备都不可能出现。

 

Subhrajyoti Parida, works at Helicopter Division, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.

Unless the brighter students love their motherland and work for her, we can't make indigenous fighter jets..

除非聪明的学生热爱他们的祖国,为祖国母亲工作,否则我们无法制造本土的战斗机。

 

Patrick Bindner, pilot, fluid dynamics engineering research, 100+ R&D papers

It’s pretty simple. They do build indigenous aircraft, including a supersonic 4-gen fighter.

这很简单。他们确实制造了本土飞机,其中还包括了一架超音速4代战斗机。

 

Sarang Kashikar, worked at Indian Army

We do manufacture weapons in India. However, we need to have more R & D, and master cutting edge technology.

我们确实在印度本土制造武器。但是,我们需要有更多的研发,掌握前沿技术。

 

Praveen Venkiteswara Annu, India; my motherland, my pride. Born and bred in India. TW18

LCA or Tejas is one small step for India. Hopefully, we will soon have the required technology transfer to build fighter jets like Rafale indigenously.

轻型战斗机和光辉战机是印度迈出的一小步。希望不久我们就能获得必要的技术转让,自主生产“阵风”这样的战斗机。

 

Bumbhole Rao

Because govt employees salaries are not sufficient to keep the pace with social change therefore if collective will of the government can be relaxed for few decades then others can enjoy perks of such inability !!

因为政府雇员的工资无法跟上社会变化的步伐,所以如果政府的集体意志可以放松几十年,那么其他人就可以享受这种无能的津贴!!

 

Padmabhushan Shivram Rajguru, worked at Walchand College of Engineering, Sangli

This is because of lack of private companies in India's defence sector .in america many companies are working for the military development applications system. But the case is not with India..

这是因为印度国防部门缺乏私营企业。在美国,许多公司都在为澳门足球陪率发展应用系统工作。但印度并非如此。

 

Juby Mathew, Managing Director at www.cogreen.in

The biggest Mafia is Medical Industry and Weapon Industry.

最大的黑手党是医药工业和武器工业。

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Well I, being from Aviation Branch, will not comment for Fighter Jet specifically, because it's useless to talk considering the Small initiative like SARAS project which started with pomp and show never saw the day light with lots of bureocracy, internal politics,external politics and to take upper cut from black marketers of weapon industry.

Government should start having all these things made by doing reverse engineering and then go on to develop advanced versions in India....will army accept this approach?

There is no big defence industry in india. Kickbacks from foreign companies was the name of the game.

Defence allocation should be at least 5 percent of GDP. Allow THAAD missile defence system on China border and Pak border along with S-400 missile defence system. Thereafter we will have lot of time to build other equipment .

Defence procurement is slow because babus sitting in the MOD are looking for bribes else they will slow down procurment.

So let me come to the conclusion,No we can't build our own advance weapon system for another 100 years because our babu's will never allow that.

我,来自航空行业,不会特别对喷气式战斗机发表评论,因为这纯属毫无意义的讨论,萨拉斯这样的项目开始时敲锣打鼓阵仗十足,可从未看到过曙光,只有无穷无尽的官僚政治、内部政治、外部政治并从武器行业的黑市商人手中捞取好处。

政府应该通过逆向工程来制造所有这些东西,然后在印度继续研发改进版本……军方会接受这种方式吗?

印度没有大型国防工业。来自外国公司的回扣才是问题的关键。

国防拨款至少应占GDP的5%。允许萨德导弹防御系统与S-400导弹防御系统部署在中国和巴基斯坦边境。之后我们将有很多时间来建造其他设备。

国防采购之所以缓慢,是因为在国防部办公室里的官老爷们得拿点贿赂,否则他们就放慢采购速度。

所以让我来总结一下,不,我们未来100年内都不可能建立我们自己的先进武器系统,因为我们的官老爷们永远不会允许那样做。

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